America has a funny attitude toward its athletes and whether they ought to "win at all costs." (For all I know, so do other countries. I just haven't studied them as closely.)
Take Michael Jordan. In his long list of game-winning buckets, none might be more etched into our memories than the last one of his Chicago Bulls days, when he finished off the Utah Jazz in Game 6 of the 1998 NBA Finals. What most people overlook is that just prior to that shot, Jordan flagrantly, blatantly shoved his defender Bryon Russell aside. It was a foul. He indisputably broke the rules, although the referees completely ignored it. If any fans acknowledge this maneuver at all, it's usually with this endorsement: "But that's what made Jordan great: He was an assassin, someone who would do anything to win."
Last night, Floyd Mayweather, Jr. did anything to win. As Ortiz was apologizing for a head butt, Mayweather tagged his defenseless opponent and knocked him out. That what Mayweather did was perfectly legal, perfectly within the rules, is virtually without dispute. Instead, the debate has centered on whether Mayweather, as a great fighter, should have had to do such a thing to score a victory. He was roundly booed by the audience during his post-fight interview.
Mayweather's offense, if any, was of a lesser degree than Jordan's. The difference, of course, is that Mayweather is a villain, a role he plays to the hilt, and Jordan was a national hero, however much his "white hat" was an act he was putting on for the masses. Whether we want our athletes to win at all costs, it seems, depends on what we think of the athlete.
The outcome of Saturday's welterweight clash has ramifications for more than just Mayweather's reputation. Some might say it has ramfications for boxing as a whole, but every time something controversial happens in boxing, "some" say that. It all warrants a long look at what happened, how it happened and what it means.
Victor Ortiz And Joe Cortez
That Ortiz showed mental toughness in big win over Andre Berto earlier this year said good things about whether he was capable of exhibiting such a quality, given how he quit in his fight against Marcos Maidana. What he showed against Mayweather wasn't so much a lack of toughness but a sign that he still doesn't precisely have the mindset of a fighter.
It's not clear to me why Ortiz head butted Mayweather. Some have proposed that he was frustrated with how the fight was going. But at that precise moment, Ortiz was having some success against Mayweather, and HBO's team saw growing confidence in the young man in that 4th round. I don't know; I really don't. But I don't know what's in Ortiz' head half the time. Sometimes, I doubt even he knows. Maybe, sometimes, he's just not thinking at all.
I'm all for sportsmanship. But one apology is plenty. He hugged Mayweather and kissed his cheek, and that should've done it. Then, as Cortez was leading him around the ring to deduct a point, he reached over and touched Mayweather's glove by way of a second apology. Right before the moment he got tagged, he was once more trying to hug Mayweather for apology #3.
If you have seen any Mayweather fights, and I'm assuming Ortiz had, you know he's not big on getting friendly in the ring, or waiting for his opponent to be ready before he punches them. Against Arturo Gatti, as Gatti turned away in the 1st round, Mayweather punched and dropped him. In Mayweather's last fight, against Shane Mosley, he tagged Mosley as Mosley was trying to make excessively nice touching gloves. Why would Ortiz think he could combine both those missteps into one dumb sandwich and not get smacked?
Ortiz' account afterward about what happened just doesn't fit the footage. He claims he was looking at referee Joe Cortez and Cortez said, "'Break,' or something." No. Cortez, after deducting Ortiz a point, motioned to both boxers to resume the fight. Cortez, from that moment on, stopped looking at the two boxers, apparently trying to make sure the timekeeper had restarted the clock. Ortiz himself was looking directly at Mayweather with his hands down -- not Cortez -- from the moment he obeyed Cortez' orders to resume fighting until AFTER he got that Mayweather left hook to the mug. When he got the left hook, THEN he looked at Cortez, his hands still down. What goes through someone's head at a moment like that, to get punched cleanly and then look at the referee instead of the man punching you? Was he already concussed?
Maybe, sometimes, he's just not thinking at all.
He wants a rematch. From a sheerly competitive standpoint prior to the head butt, he might deserve one. The 1st round was Mayweather's, but Ortiz hung tight. The 2nd was also tight, but I liked Ortiz' combinations and hard shots. The 3rd was a Mayweather wipeout. The 4th, prior to the foul, was close -- I had it for Ortiz at the time, but probably should've had it for Mayweather. Accounts that Mayweather was thoroughly dominating Ortiz and making him look bad and rocking him (I didn't see him get rocked once) and lumping up his face ignore that Ortiz had some real success, not that it was sustained enough for anyone to assume he was going to win or come close. Ortiz passed on opportunities to punch Mayweather when they were in close, where he had Mayweather trapped on the ropes and in the corners where he needed him, and that hurt Ortiz' chances of victory.
Would the controversy sell a rematch? I suspect not. My guess is the ending left a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths and nobody wants a do-over. And enough people are turned off by Ortiz overall that it's hard to say when he'll get another fight that anyone truly wants to see. Not that his strange brain cares. It's one thing to smile all the time, through good and through bad, but he's a weird, weird dude to say things like this about his loss: "You know, whatever. Bottom line, I had fun."
Cortez is taking a lot of the blame for what happened Saturday. He certainly did suck. He's sucked as a referee for a long, long time now. He should've been paying attention to what was going on inside the ring once he told the fighters to resume action. Instead, he was looking away, probably at the timekeeper -- but if he was looking at the timekeeper, he should've separated the men until he got the clock under control. And maybe if he was watching what happened, Mayweather wouldn't have attacked when he did, but I doubt it -- he's punched defenseless opponents before when the referee was looking right at him. Nope, this isn't about Cortez. He has a bit role in all this. This is about Ortiz and Mayweather.
Or maybe it's about boxing?
The "boxing gets another black eye" trope has already been rolled out a little bit. And yes, because Mayweather is a villain and his actions will be viewed by many as the act of a villain, I suppose some could be turned off by this. And yes, it was an unsatisfactory conclusion to the fight, to say the least. But as I said at the beginning, others in different sports have outright cheated more flagrantly than anything Mayweather did wrong.
So no, Mayweather-Ortiz wasn't ABOUT boxing.
This was absolutely one of the most bizarre endings in boxing history, at least on the big-fight level. You have to go back to the days of Mike Tyson to find such oddities. How can something so unique say anything at all about the sport as a whole?
Maybe for the fans who just tuned into their first boxing match the other night, this won't convert anyone. The undercard fights, which were largely excellent, might or might not have compensated for any sourness these hypothetical boxing virgins have from the main event. But to anyone who's seen more than one boxing match, they ought to know that this isn't the norm.
Of course, I can't control, nor predict, the perceptions of casual fans. Maybe they won't see the difference between Mayweather-Ortiz and every other fight, ever. Maybe they'll be drawn in further by the controversy. Who knows? I just don't think they should judge boxing based on this one peculiar occurence, and if they want to fit it into a pattern of boxing being controversial, they'll have to go back more than a decade to find anything comparable that happened inside the ring.
It just so happens that I'm not afflicted by the philosophical inconsistency I set out at the very beginning. I happen to dislike both Jordan and Mayweather. I prefer sportsmen like Manny Pacquiao who prove that you can win with grace. I sort of grudgingly admire how driven Jordan and Mayweather are, and their immense talents. But I admire Pacquiao, too, and more.
I don't condone what happened Saturday night. A classier athlete, a more honorable athlete, doesn't do what Mayweather did. It's not just about Ortiz getting what he deserved for his head butt or stupidity. There are ways of taking vengeance on someone without punching them while they're apologizing. And as commenter justininsly said in the recap post, Mayweather didn't just take advantage of the rules. He flat out made it look to Ortiz as though he was embracing him back, then sucker punched him. Ortiz should have known better, and he got KO'd legally. But Mayweather was uncool. If there's a difference in what Jordan did vs. what Mayweather did that makes Mayweather look worse, it's that one was a touch more sinister in its intent.
Boxing-wise, for all the talk of Mayweather's master class, I saw vulnerability in Mayweather's performance Saturday night. Ortiz' size, along with his speed, combinations and perhaps his southpaw stance, gave Mayweather a little trouble. Yes, Mayweather was landing his lead right and jab at will, and I think ultimately that he would've won the fight. But that's a separate question than whether he was vulnerable. And it was the kind of vulnerability that made me think Pacquiao really would be competitive with Mayweather and perhaps even beat him, since Pacquiao is faster than Ortiz, punches better in combination, hits harder and is a southpaw -- although he lacks the superior size of Victor.
Naturally, that gets us to wondering about what's next for Mayweather, and how it would go.
If there's a rematch of this fight -- which Mayweather said, right afterward, that he would grant -- then I would still favor Mayweather, and maybe even by a wider margin because he's good at figuring out his opponent. The rematch doesn't do it for me, anyway. I'm still interested in Mayweather fighting middleweight champion Sergio Martinez, but his promoter Lou DiBella's offer to face Martinez at 164 pounds or less (Ortiz' weight on fight night) doesn't sound like the kind of thing that would thrill Floyd. Maybe he fights Amir Khan sometime in 2011.
More likely than not, Mayweather will go into another of his long lulls, the kind where he sits around and counts his tens of millions of dollars. If he ever fights Pacquiao, it will be after Pacquiao looks extremely vulnerable, because that's Mayweather's m.o. for choosing opponents. (And please, media, stop letting Mayweather say, unchallenged, that he'll fight Pacquiao when he agrees to "take the test," i.e. the Olympic-style drug testing he wants from Manny. Pacquiao has agreed to all of Mayweather's original terms, and several subsequent additional demands.)
If Mayweather doesn't fight Pacquiao soon, it will be too late. That betrays a lot more horrible traits in his makeup than anything he did Saturday. And unfortunately enough, if anyone wants to take boxing's inability to make Mayweather-Pacquiao happen as a broader indictment of the sport, they'd be right.
If mayweather was really the best ever(good one!) He wouldn't have done that to Ortiz. Ortiz was being an idiot kissing mayweather (suspect ) the time had not started when the ko happened. 8 seconds left in the round bell didn't ring when Cortez was counting., and everyone shouldn't be so surprised at goofy ass Ortiz' reaction to getting KTFO it was a fixed fight fuck mayweather and Ortiz ill never watch either fighter again
I also think, amongst the boxing experts and die-hards, the response has been predictable: noone cared much for Ortiz beforehand, his weirdness, the Maidana affair, the perception that he was greatly outclassed; and Mayweather is a boxing snob's favorite: like Foreman said, the harder it is to understand, the better it is. Appreciating the nuanced mastery of Mayweather often comes with a certain elitist, insider mentality not unlike wine connossieurs or jazz fanatics.
Mayweather was acting within the rules and Ortiz acted like a novice in not protecting himself, at the very least in that brief window between the two punches. But most average fans who, in Floyd's words, don't know shit about boxing, saw that as a cheap sucker punch on a guy who was defenseless. That was the reaction from the crowd I was with.
An editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times seemed to take the same view and capped it off with the standard "another blow to a dying sport" garbage. I'm just sayin, I don't think that move went over as well with the general public despite its' impassioned defense from boxing experts. But it sure as hell won't hurt selling Pacquiao-Mayweather, just intensifies the animosity people feel for Floyd. How many people watching that do you think said "God, I wanna see Pacquiao beat this guy's ass". Hell, it ran through my mind and I've always been more of a Floyd fan and thought he would win if they ever fought.
Great article and analysis, I think you presented one of the most even-handed reactions around. It was poor sportsmanship from Floyd, but he had already accepted one Ortiz apology and most importantly Cortez had signaled the fight to continue. The more I think on the infamous "I don't think I deserve to be getting beat up like this" speech, I don't think it reflected a guy with no balls, a heartless quitter as some said, I think it showed that Ortiz is a genuinely good (if not somewhat dim-witted and delusional) dude who has a hard time turning on the switch to methodical, cold-blooded killer in the ring. Thinking of the (and I'm absolutely ripping someone off here with this adjective) baleful eyes of Roberto Duran or Sonny Liston when they walked into a ring and seeing Victor's hazy, wide-eyed, earnest disposition during and after the fight....there's something that's not clicking. You can be the nicest guy in the world in real life and a pyschopathic menace in the ring...see Manny Pacquiao. Victor didn't act like a fighter, he acted like an apologetic dude with a conscience. And he paid the price dearly. All that said, would Pacquiao have done what Floyd did? Hell no. Typically, fighters take a step back from those hugs, put their guard up, even throw a pawing jab to signal their intent to resume action. Mayweather was knocking him out nanoseconds from the time they touched gloves. Cold-blooded as hell.
Great stuff, Tim. I was going to write something along similar lines but filled with my douchebaggery and bitterness, so I'm glad you got a balanced, analytical perspective on record so I don't have to spew my BS.
If Ortiz protected himself the way Mayweather did after receiving a headbutt, when Floyd maintained a defensive posture (shoulder turned, glove at his cheek) while yelling at the ref, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'm sure it's my personal biases, but I don't think anyone would be taking the heat that Mayweather is if it wasn't Mayweather. In my view, Ortiz comes out of this looking absolutely pathetic, and this fiasco is a far bigger knock against him than the post-fight Maidana comments. Those were just words. This was a fighter, on the biggest stage there is, with as tremendous an opportunity as you can get in boxing at his fingertips, acting like a fool. Like an amateur. Like somebody who had never been in a professional fight before. Like a clown.
If Cortez said "Let's go" - and I haven't heard anyone dispute that he did - then there was no cheap shot. When exactly would it have been OK for Floyd to punch again, if the ref's direction to do so is not good enough? Should he have waited for Ortiz to start punching? Everyone keeps bringing up the "Protect yourself at all times" adage (really, it's not an adage, it's a damn rule - it's part of the referee's prefight instructions), but the one thing nobody is mentioning is that the ref also always says, "Obey my commands at all times." "Let's go" is a command to fight. Ortiz didn't do that and he paid the price. I don't see anything cheap about that. And when I'm looking for someone to blame for what happened, I'm looking squarely at goofy grinning Vic.
OK, so I guess I couldn't help myself from spewing my BS. Ooops. I just don't think of Ortiz as a victim like a lot of people seem to think. I see him as incredibly immature and mentally soft. And if he ever winds up in the ring with Brandon Rios, I guaran-damn-tee you that guy ain't going to be smiling, hugging him, and touching gloves all the time either, and if the ref says fight he's gonna fight hard. And if Ortiz doesn't man up before then he'll wind up flat on his ass as the ref counts to ten one more time.
My initial reaction right after Ortiz getting KTFO -- what an idiot (to Ortiz.) He was such a dumbass for throwing that headbutt while winning the round. And, he was a bigger doo-doo head for being too apologetic. He does that everytime -- must be a raider.
My consolation comments:
Mayweather - classless and unsportsmanlike. a lot of ppl hate floyd exactly because of what he showed last saturday. this KO is much different than the Robbie Peden KO of the cocky nate campbell. Campbell was giving his chin. Floyd KO'd Ortiz while he was helpless -- helplessly being stupid for that matter.
Larry Merchant - step over unprofessionalism. Larry's a great commentator. He picks on the fighters' mental states during the fight and translates them into words. And I'm fully aware of Larry's hate of Mayweather that I understand why the post fight turned out that way. However, by taking away from the winner of the fight, he stepped beyond his professional obligations as an interviewer. Floyd had the right to call him out like that.
...and dont get me started on cortez. We will have our disagreements abt what may did, but can there be any disagreement that cortez should not ref again? What happened to neutral corners? What happened to ring management and basic referee awareness? Oh duck it. Im off for a jog!
And on ortiz. Is this the second or third time he has shown his "foppishness"? i recall another headbut incident, and the maidana thing, and i vaguely recall another show of lack of killer instinct. Is he setting himself a pattern? I wonder what his boxing equity is worth right now.
It would be interesting to hear what others think abt the three and half rounds of evidence on where mayweather is as a fighter right now. I thought he came out aggressively, more than normal anyways, as a bit of a dress rehearsal for pac, to try and show more activity, which is what anyone has to bring to the ring to have a chance against pac. I thought he half succeeded in impressing with doing that, but also revealed some weaknesses not previously that obvious. My two points on mayweather are that, first, his feet dont move as fast as they used to. Second and subsequent to that point is that, despite being more active, and less defensive, he still couldnt rifle off more than two bunch combos. That is where i just cant imagine him staying in with a super active monster combo puncher like pac. I think may is for sure on the wrong side of the mountain top, and while still really really good, i dont see him having the offensive weapons against a guy like pac. My previous optimism abt a pac may fight is now much more pessimistic...may probably knows now that he hasnt got it to match pac. Another enticing prospect is pac khan, but i cant see that happening as khan is improving in big big leaps and bounds and would be too dangerous for the careful may. Ditto martinez who would smack mays up in the air chin on full display when he tries to get aggressive. Im a big may fan but i can see his skills have degraded just a smidgen, but enough to make him vulnerable against the top guns. Im curious abt what others think...
Yep. Nice piece Starks.
I want to see Ortiz-Cintron: The "Flakiest Fighter" Championship of the World.
Ortiz would tries to hug Cintron, and Cintron drops to the canvas, complaing to the ref that he was headbutted.
Cintron gets up after the 10-count, but the ref lets it keep going anyway.
Then, Oritz rams his head into Cintron's face, knocking Cintron out of the ring.
As Cintron is being counted out, Ortiz quits because he "doesn't deserve to take this kind of beating".
Then Cintron would start crying.
And it just might end up being an awesome fight for as long as it lasts.
Good one Tim. If you watch closely, M put his hands up ready to fight just before O made his last apologetic gesture, which M accepted though obviously preferring to keep fighting. Then he put his hands up the second time, and bizarely O kept his down. O had two clear signs from M and one from Ref that fihts on again. Then M went bam and O still kept his hands down and ignored M looking at Ref. If M at this point didnt throw the second punch, then it would have effectively been admission that the first punch was out of order. To countenance that the first punch was in order he had no option but to keep punching. Maybe Ive gone too far on a micrbit of data, but thats how it played out to me.
After the fight i spent five mins shaking my head thinking, one thing i love abt boxing is you never ever know what you will get! Never!
I must admit the main event did leave a bad taste in my mouth, and I am a Mayweather fan. I didn't see the fight as close as you did, but still for it to end so quickly and under such circumstances is unsatisfying. Ultimately I don't really see how much can be gleaned from this fight that we didn't already know about both fighters. Floyd comes to win and does so in the most efficient way possible; Ortiz came into the fight seen as a bit of a headcase and that impression remains. What this fight says about the possible outcome of Mayweather - Pacquaio? Who knows? What I saw leads me to believe Floyd remains the fighter he has been for the last decade or so. Likely you are correct in that he will fight Manny when he sees weakness. That is his way and his right. Can't say I like it and it may not be sporting but as Ortiz found out, Floyd plays to win.
I think Ortiz' main problem is that he is frustratingly, almost endearingly naive. You can hear it in the things he says in interviews, in the inconsistencies over which persona he thinks will earn him most fans, in his desperateness to be liked, even in the agressive but sloppy way he fights. I don't think there's anything wrong with his head (and I certainly look forward to seeing him fight as long again because he's very entertaining), he just needs to learn a few of the unspoken rules of being a fighter.
>THEN he looked at Cortez, his hands still down. What goes through someone's head at a moment like that, to get punched cleanly and then look at the referee instead of the man punching you? Was he already concussed?
The answer is as plain now as it was when I was seeing it happen on TV--Ortiz , in effect, was saying: "Hey, ref, he hit me! I thought it was still a break!" It was the most natural thing to do for someone who had just apologized for a foul, to turn to an authority to address another offense (although by the opponent, this time)
It alarms me that this isn't obvious. It alarms me more that you should put this down to a concussion.
Yeah it doesn't seem to matter to me how many apologies there were or what the ref was doing, someone with class and character would not have been able to do that....doesn't matter if one person is watching or 10 million, but oh well, we are talking about Mayweather...you wouldn't see Andrade do that haha...
I told all my friends who asked about the fight. Mayweather won on a completely legal but incredibly cheap KO. (And in respect to the MJ comparison, I'm a jazz fan, and I didn't think it was a blantant shove) But the question I keep asking myself is would Ali, Leonard, or RJJ ever do that to win a fight?? A guy who considers himself to be the greatest ever shouldn't have to do that to win the fight.
In respect to the fight, I thought we had a pretty good one brewing. Mayweather looked bigger and slower (footwork wise) than in any other Mayweather fight I'd seen and in that 4th round Ortiz caught him twice pretty good and had him up against the ropes. The headbutt was incredibly dumb and I'm with you, I have no idea what he was thinking because at the end of the round I would have had it 2 rounds each, with Ortiz not showing any signs of slowing yet.
Defintely an interesting ending, and a shame because I thought the fight was coming around nicely, and the card in general was pretty impressive. Oh well, can't wait for Martinez to fight, probably see a legitament knockout in that fight...
Lot's of hate for Mayweather, but his punch was legal. Everyone wants to forget that Ortiz was cheap and actually head butted him. What do you think? POLL: Was Mayweather's KO against Ortiz a cheap shot?Vote: http://www.wepolls.com/p/2683060
this KO reminds me a lot of what hines ward does in the NFL if you follow it. he blocks hard and blocks people not really expecting it. it's a dick move, occasionally gets guys hurt, and he does it with a goddamn smile on his face.
fuck i hate hines ward.
anyways, mayweather was being no more than a jerk. recall manfredo-edouard from earlier this year, when the latter broke away from a clinch (no ref breaking it) with his hands down and got clocked. it changed the whole fight: edouard was winning handily, then was on queer street all night. dick move by manfredo? yeah. legal? of course.
mayweather is already hated by a bout one gazillionmillion people, and that's not going to change. hopefully he fights pacquiao but god help us all if the fight would end like that
I think that the key difference between what Jordan did and what Mayweather did is the difference between boxing and other sports. That is, the very aim of boxing is to damage your opponent's brain and body. Floyd did something that, while it was within the letter of the law, took advantage of Ortiz and did him very real harm. To my mind, that's a much greater sin than cheating in other sports. Mayweather is truly a nasty man, and showed as much in the post fight interview.
Ortiz is not a normal, balanced person. He probably needs some kind of therapy, and repeated concussions and the attention of millions of people is not the right kind.
@angel.smokin The idea this fight was fixed is preposterous.
If Ortiz was winning the fight and Mayweather won in this fashion, eyebrows could be raised. But Mayweather dominated all four rounds of this fight, and he was the 7-1 favorite entering the bout.
The fight was following expected form. So please explain to me how and why the fix was in.
@Scott_Kraus Anyone who calls getting knocked out with two punches while not protecting himself "fun" is a f*cking head case.
Ortiz's mettle is the bastard offspring of Bibendum of Michelin fame and the Stay-Puf marshmallow man.
Rios would destroy Ortiz. Annihilate him. Mentally crush him.
If Mayweather's incredible defense and strong right hand frustrated Ortiz into a bipolar breakdown of billy-goat head-ramming and "Kumbaya" hugging and ear-licking, then Rios' power, fury and relentless style might make Vicious Victor melt into a puddle like Frosty the Snowman in the greenhouse.
@Scott_Kraus Whether Joe Cortez SAID "let's go" or not, he most certainly motioned for the two fighters to restart. The "bringing two palms together" motion is a universal motion by a referee for a fight to begin. Ortiz had to have seen that motion because it was at that moment he moved toward Mayweather. If he thought Cortez meant something else -- that he wanted the two to touch gloves -- that is his mistake, because the universal motion by a referee on that is to SAY "Come over here, touch gloves," most often by holding the fighters by the arms and bringing them to one another.
Your douchebaggery and bitterness is always welcome here. You know that.
@RoWyN How did Merchant step beyond his professional obligations? Mayweather refused to answer Merchant's two initial questions. So like any skilled interviewer, Merchant rephrased the question in an attempt to get a straight answer from Floyd.
Merchant did nothing unprofessional in his questioning. His response to Mayweather's expletive-laced attack can be debated, but as Michael Rosenthal at The Ring wrote, Merchant is nearing the end of a 50-year career as a boxing writer and commentator, and he has nothing to lose by responding to an on-air straw man low blow with the same vigor with which it was delivered.
@RoWyN RoWyN! Long time no talk.
Very interesting take on Merchant. I expect I'll be discussing this in the next blog post. It seems like most of the boxing public has come down on his side, but I wonder if some of that isn't because most of the boxing public hates Mayweather.
I agree, Mayweather fought differently in this fight then I've ever seen him before, though im not sure it was a Pacquiao prep. He was slower on his feet and was much more engaged in the fight because of it. I was used to a Mayweather that would do that shoulder roll and then move, picking his places, this fight he stood there toe to toe most of the time, still hard to hit, but fighting, and there were 3 times that I thought Ortiz caught him with a pretty good shot in 2 rounds. Thats about 2 times more than he's ever been caught in a fight by my recollection.
@Pretty Toney Would the winner fight Allan Green at middleweight? The trophy for that mini-tournament could be a gold-encrusted Corn Flake.
@justinnisly Thanks for making an excellent point.
@gavaniacono Don't worry about the multi-comments, old friend.
Yeah, the degree to which Ortiz had his gloves down for so long was exceptional.
Boxing is pretty fucking unpredictable, all right.
Per your other messages: Mayweather looked about the same speed on his feet here as he did against Mosley, to me. But that's not as fast as it once was.
I'm done with Cortez as a referee, too. DONE.
@chris.macadam It's possible -- even likely -- that Floyd is as good as he always has been. It's just that some of the Ortiz/Pacquiao similarities lead me to the conclusion that some of the same vulnerabilities that Ortiz exposed could be exposed by Manny.
@ham_napkin I really hope you're right. Naivety does explain pretty much all of the behavior we've seen from Ortiz, but then so does stupidity or some sort of personality/mental problem. I really like the guy, and he's only 24, so I'm hoping he can still grow out of it. But he's already had so many second chances (and even apparent redemptions), that I just don't know...
It's pretty obvious that Ortiz looked at the ref after the first punch because he didn't realize it was 'fight on.' When Cortez brought them together, his 'fight' signal was not demonstrative enough that even the viewers needed to replay just to see if what Floyd did was within the rules. There is equal parts blame to both fighters and ref involved.
@stickfigure Andrade! So friendly.
@jblatt1 Question: Your friends that you told about the fight... what was their reaction?
Also: If you're a Jazz fan, you have to know that Bryon Russell is too good a defender to go flying three feet away from Jordan without an aggressive ass-push. This is the first time I've heard THIS answer, and you should be a biased party?
Ali was a pretty notorious cheater, with his pushing down the head move. Roy Jones got disqualified once for punching an opponent while he was down. I can't think of anything Leonard did that was comparable. The Ali parallel isn't exact, but the Jones thing is a degree worse than what Mayweather did.
Yeah, the card overall was pretty fun. Surprisingly so -- Morales-Cano shouldn't have been that good.
@robb_muckle I gots no hate for Manfredo for what he did to Edouard.
If Mayweather beat Pacquiao, it would take him to a new level of being hated.
@ALEXMAC I considered that. But then, BECAUSE the aim of boxing is to damage your opponent, every single thing that happens in boxing is shaded by that. It's why Margarito's cheating bothered me so much, for instance. But nothing happened in that exchange that couldn't have happened elsewhere in the fight, i.e. someone getting knocked out legally.
Mayweather IS a nasty dude, though. And Ortiz IS fucking weird.
@PaulKelly @angel.smokin what raised my eyebrows was Ortiz being over apologetic to mayweather after an intentional headbutt. The fact that we heard no bell ring when Cortez counted to 8 (8 seconds were left in the round when the headbutt happened ) but most of all how I knew this fight was bullshit was goofy ass Ortiz smiling almost immediately when being sat down on the stool. No objecting to the ref or anything like that. Legal punch whatever it was a sucker punch and I do not think a world champion would be so content losing in that fashion. Even afterwards he goes to mayweather and his corner men looking all buddy buddy....unless Victor Ortiz is a complete retard he wouldn't have been smiling after the fight unless he knew he was getting paid a whole lot more than 2.5 mil
@PaulKelly I have no problem with Merchant manning up to Floyd's blasting. I actually liked how he didn't back down. However, from the beginning of the interview, Larry straight up dissed Floyd by blowing smoke on his win. Although his win was borderline unethical, he did come to fight and fairly exchanged jabs up to the headbutt incident. I just thought Larry didn't allow Floyd to pose enough smiles on his somewhat KO win. Larry's interview just seemed a little too personal.
@tstarks Haven't watched too many fights recently. I've followed the results but nothing in boxing was too interesting lately. I hope that changes for the next coming fights. TQBR is home for me so no worries, I'll always be back.
@zameric If someone punches you and your response isn't to put your hands up but rather to look away from that person, that's crazy!
@tstarks My friends that didnt watch the fight were asking about it, and thats what I told them.
The ones I watched the fight with had similar reactions but maybe to a lesser degree. I think the overall reaction would be along the lines of: It was cheap, but the first thing you're taught is to protect yourself at all times. A lesson Victor Ortiz just learned the very hard way, and a couple of them brought up the valid point of, "how many apologies is enough?" because that was Ortiz's third time apologizing.
And I know that you've got way more experience as far as watching the greats fight, but I still have a hard time beleiving that those guys would go to that level to win any of their fights. The thing about what RJJ did is that it was illegal, a blatantly illegal shot is just cheating, Mayweathers shot was completely legal, just cheap as hell.
And Morales is a very vague shadow of his former self but man his punches are sharp, and I think he's gonna get himself a couple more big fights out of this.
@tstarks I reckon it's why something like this is so galling/visually shocking. I reckon you can hear it in the gasp from the crowd when Mayweather clocked Ortiz.
@angel.smokin Guess you didn't see the Maidana fight, then.
@tstarks@justinnisly@ham_napkin Ortiz's naivete is incredibly ironic. Here's a kid who was abandoned by his parents by age 12 and raised his little brother while bouncing around foster homes. He leaves Kansas to fight in SoCal and then returns home to Kansas to retrieve his brother, as promised.
One would think a guy with that kind of back story would be steeled by an incredible amount of street smarts.
Instead, Ortiz sometimes appears as incredulous at the ways of the world as my 10-year-old son.
Odd. Just effing odd.
@tstarks That is indeed crazy. Ortiz was plain stupid for not putting his hands up after getting hit. I'm only saying that the only logical reason I could come up with for Ortiz looking at Cortez after getting hit is that he didn't know (for whatever reason) that the fight was on.