Pound-For-Pound Top 20 Boxers Update, 7/12

Written by Tim Starks on .

bradley-pacquiao-after-the-fight
(Timothy Bradley, at left, after fighting Manny Paquiao, at right)


What to do, what to do with the whole crazy Timothy Bradley-Manny Pacquiao decision, rankings-wise? That was the big dilemma for this update of the pound-for-pound rankings of the best boxers in the world, regardless of weight.

I think it boils down to what kind of rankings you're talking about here. At welterweight, I think Bradley should be above Pacquiao, something Ring Magazine contemplated doing. Unfortunately, that magazine has taken to frequently ignoring official results, something that was once a rarity in those pages (based on my survey of 13 past controversial decisions, dating back to the 1940s, Ring favored the official winner in 11 of those cases). No other sport that I know of -- no matter how ambiguously that sport is scored, or how controverial was some sort of judicial/official/referee call -- ignores official results. If you win, you win, period. And if you beat somebody in divisional rankings, I think you should be ranked ahead of that person.

But that's a longer debate, and one that's not terribly relevant to pound-for-pound rankings. Now, me, more often than not, I've honored the official decisions. I thought Juan Manuel Marquez beat Pacquiao in each of their last two fights, but have left Pacquiao ahead of Marquez. And when Chad Dawson was briefly awarded a controverial win over Bernard Hopkins, I ranked Dawson above Hopkins. But all of these cases are different than this one. All of them were debatable. While there have been some who have looked anew at the Bradley-Pacquiao decision and seen it as somewhat close, I have not. Pound-for-pound rankings are more nebulous than divisional rankings, and while many of the same standards should apply, not all of them can or should. And I cannot say that Bradley is better than Pacquiao in a pound-for-pound sense.

With that out of the way, let's see where everyone settled in after a decently busy two months. We have a new top-10 entrant, one top-20 exit and one new top-20 entrant, and that means some movement all around. As usual, the most important standard for P4P consideration is quality wins, especially of recent vintage, but things like the "eyeball test" and career achievement and a few other smaller things factor into the rankings.


1. Floyd Mayweather, welterweight

If nothing else, Pacquiao's loss cemented Mayweather's status as the top man. Look at how the voting went in the Yahoo pound-for-pound poll for evidence. He's in jail for a while longer, though, so the king rules behind bars for the time being and won't be back in action until November at the earliest.

2. Manny Pacquiao, welterweight

Pacquiao stays put at #2, but his position is weaker as one of the two top men in the sport than ever. If he rematches with Bradley, Marquez or even Cotto next, it's increasingly easier to imagine him losing in his return to the ring in November. Pacquiao was by turns pretty good and pretty mediocre against Bradley, though, so his slow slide appears to be in full effect.

3. Juan Manuel Marquez, junior welterweight

It's just a tune-up for a potential fourth Pacquiao meeting that Marquez has in mind next, with a July fight having gone from a potential Brandon Rios match-up to... Al Sabaupan. At least right now. It's changed a lot, what Marquez will do next. Sabaupan is said to be something like a mini-Pacquiao, so it makes sense in that regard.

4. Andre Ward, super middleweight

We won't hear from Ward again until September, when the 168-pound champ faces the 175-pound champ, Chad Dawson. It's a fight where the winner could supplant Marquez or even Pacquiao -- Yahoo's Kevin Iole already ranks Ward above Pacquiao. Important fight, probably not a fun one, but I'm very interested.

5. Sergio Martinez, middleweight

Holy shit, it seems like Martinez' dream fight is going to happen. Days ago, I got a news release announcing an international media tour that begins July 10 for the Julio Cesar Chavez, Jr. bout. It'll go down in September, though, the fight itself, if it actually happens. Until then, Martinez and Chavez are going to say bad things about one another, and there's s still a chance the fight culd be moved to a different date.

6. Nonito Donaire, junior featherweight

Donaire is one of the few guys on this list in meaningful competition during the next two months, as he's facing Jeffrey Mathebula this coming weekend, a rare opponent who's taller than Donaire. A win probably won't affect his pound-for-pound stock, but it sure won't hurt. We'll have a full preview of the Mathebula fight later this week.

7. Carl Froch, super middleweight

In May, Froch beat a man who was on a lot of top-10 P4P lists. I don't think Lucian Bute belonged there, but he was certainly top-20 and Froch still has one of the best resumes in boxing over the last few years even without it. So he belongs pretty high here. Next fight won't be til fall, possibly against Mikkel Kessler.

8. Chad Dawson, light heavyweight

See Ward, above. I have Dawson a couple spots ahead of most lists, but he's an undeniable talent, and beating Hopkins the way he did in that rematch was very impressive to me. I might wish we were getting a rematch with Jean Pascal instead of Ward, but Ward helps him more in a pound-for-pound sense.

9. Wladimir Klitschko, heavyweight

Most folk have Wlad a few spots higher than me, too, but other than David Haye he's not beaten a soul who could even conceivably have cracked the P4P top 20. Everyone else above him has at least one sure-fire top-10 or top-20 listee, often several. A Tony Thompson rematch this wekeend changes nothing.

10. Timothy Bradley, welterweight

I moved Bradley up ahead of Vitali Klitschko, by virtue of a decent showing against Pacquiao and the official win on his record. But I couldn't move him up much more than that. I actually wanted to. But I didn't see his resume even with that on it as better than the men ahead of him. One wonders whether the leg injuries hurt his chances of winning against Pacquiao legit.

11. Vitali Klitschko, heavyweight

You can't knock a guy for taking a showcase fight as his retirement bout. It's hard to sell a September bout against Manuel Charr as much more than that, I'm afraid.

12. Abner Mares, junior featherweight

Mares might've been in action in August against Christian Esquivel, but suffered an injury and won't. Maybe he can go straight to Donaire now , or fight any actual junior featherweight since moving up from bantamweight, as he just keeps targeting blown-up 118-pounders.

13. Anselmo Moreno, bantamweight

Since an easy win on a Showtime doubleheader in April, there's been virtually no talk at all about what Moreno's next fight, as Mares has turned his attention elsewhere and Moreno is probably very far down the list of people Donaire wants to face.

14. Miguel Cotto, junior middleweight

Cotto is reportedly talking about fighting in December, but I bet if he gets the call to fight Pacquiao, he'll suddenly be willing to fight in November. If he insists on a fight above welterweight, I give him a very good chance in that bout. At welter, he's got less of a chance but still a decent one.

15. Yuriorkis Gamboa, featherweight

Freedom! Gamboa can now resume his boxing career after reportedly reaching a settlement with Top Rank, the promotional company with which he'd been feuding. Specifics on what YURIORKIS GAMBOA! might do next fight-wise are in very short supply, however.

16. Brian Viloria, flyweight

There's been talk of Viloria facing Hernan Marquez in September or October, and it's a fight that would do a lot for his P4P status. Not to mention, it would probably be a stone classic.

17. Bernard Hopkins, light heavyweight

Hopkins recently said he was looking at a bout with Beibut Shumenov, but Shumenov's team has said it isn't interested. Hopkins coul still be back in the fall, though.

18. Brandon Rios, junior welterweight

Whether he was actually injured or just fat, Rios' plans to be back in action this coming weekend were delayed when the Mauricio Herrera bout was called off. Hurry back, Rios, and try to get in shape, either way. You're too much fun to be away from the ring, especially for a dumb reason.

19. Roman Gonzalez, junior flyweight

Donnie Nietes and strawweight Denver Cuello have both recently said they want to face Gonzalez, so there are some good-to-passable options for him out there. Nothing solid appears to be in the works, is all.

20. Mikkel Kessler, super middleweight

Kessler's win over Froch looks better with the passage of time, and his huge knockout of Allan Green in May, along with a deep resume prior to a long layoff, were enough for Kessler to re-enter the top 20. He replaces the man Froch beat, Bute.

Honorable mentions: Lucian Bute; Amir Khan; Lamont Peterson; Giovani Segura; Andre Dirrell; Orlando Salido; Juan Manuel Lopez; Erislandy Lara; Chris John; Robert Guerrero; Toshiaki Nishiok; Devon Alexander; Pongsaklek Wonjongkam
32 comments
Tim Imdb
Tim Imdb

You know what would be an interesting, perhaps, great fight: Martinez vs Ward.  Ward is a very versatile boxer/puncher and Martinez ain't too shabby either. That would make for a sensational fight.  I also think Canelo should be in the mix as a top twenty pound per pound soon. 

tleahey
tleahey

I, being the skeptical sort, think anyone associated with Mr. Conte, has opened themselves up to being a suspected PED abuser.  His track record is TOO sordid and filled with human body litter of his BALCO associations.  I believe the brothers Klitzchko are very under rated due to them destroying their division, weak though it maybe, they own the heavyweights...historically, THE division in professional boxing. 

 

On another subject, the game itself is in dire straights, thanks to PPV broadcasts of hamnegger fights that should be on network, free tv, not PPV.  They have destroyed their fan-base due to these fights.  I know many feel that the fifties was the golden age of boxing.  But, I think it was more like the 70's and 80's where every network carried fights on the weekends.  Not just club fights but great championship fights.  Only the EXTRAORDINARY, super fight was PPV..like Leonard/Duran I&2, Ali vs Frazier, etc...PPV, HBO, ESPN have ruined the game and destroyed any fanbase they could have created by fighting on public tv. 

tleahey
tleahey

I am wondering how Donaire made this list?  Especially, with his association with Victor Conde and his most recent charges of providing steroids for another boxer? I smell something rotten in Denmark, me thinks?  Also, that's the highest you rate Wlad the Impaler??  Nobody has come close to touching him in years?

tstarks
tstarks moderator

 @tleahey Feel free to be suspicious of Donaire; that's not totally unreasonable. But even if I was as confident about Donaire and PEDs, I rank boxers based on as much hard evidence as we can muster, and right now there's no evidence that he is guilty of anything.

 

As for Wlad: The best opponent he's ever beaten is a skittish David Haye. Everyone above him has one, or multiple, wins better than that. It's not his fault he's in such a shitty division, but I rank him as high as I do because of sustained dominance; there are people below him who also have better individual wins than he does.

NoelsBoxingBlog
NoelsBoxingBlog

This is a good list, but I wouldn't exactly list Mares over Gamboa. Mares has done  a lot of work, but I have Gamboa in my top ten. 

http://noelsboxing.blogspot.com/2012/07/pound-for-pound.html

tstarks
tstarks moderator

 @NoelsBoxingBlog Thanks. I can understand having Gamboa that high. But Gamboa's best win is over... who, Orlando Salido? Mares has beaten several boxers better than Gamboa. On pure talent, I would rank Gamboa above Mares. On accomplishment, he belongs well below Mares.

haruki
haruki

why is gamboa lower than bute? gamboa would be mares and donaire.

boxingsvoice
boxingsvoice

@haruki Gamboa has the speed to beat Mares or Donaire but he lacks intelligence. He has skill but he is cocky & clumsy & would get caught in his own game & get KOd

Manila Ice
Manila Ice

Tim - I think you got the Pac-Bradley rankings right. After two less-than-convincing performances, Pac deserves to be #2 now. And Bradley deserves a ton of credit (and a boost in the rankings) for his showing. I thought the fight was much more even than some had it. Ring's decision to install Bradley as the #8 welterweight is extremely questionable. He should be #4 at the very least.

 

One quick question for you. What are your thoughts about the Compubox numbers for this fight and more generally about the use of Compubox during the broadcast and in post-fight analysis? The stats seemed quite tilted towards Pac's favor if you ask me, and I am wondering why Compubox (given it's increasing visibility) does not bother to recheck it's numbers following fights. I think this might be an interesting topic for an article on your site. If I may, I would like to suggest one of the TQBR writers focus on the accuracy, reliability, and use (or misuse) of Compubox stats in an upcoming article. Thanks.

tstarks
tstarks moderator

 @Manila Ice I had moved him to #2 in the last rankings, but this solidified it.

 

CompuBox is a useful tool, but its accuracy at times is lacking, as you say. I'll give some thought to your suggestion on a potential article.

WilbertVilla
WilbertVilla

Pacquiao fought bradley with 7 decisively winning rounds (3,4,5,6,7,8,9), 1 decisive for bradley (10) and 4 undecisive (1,2,11,12). So lets assume brad take the 4 undecisive rounds. The score is 7-5 still in favor for pacquiao. This is the worst score we can give to pacquiao given the fact that he's the champion, the aggressor and landed even power punches that hurt bradley. So, there's no way that this fight could be a draw or bradley winning the decision!!! 

 

Mayweather vs cotto seems for me a close fight and the fight could go either way. Pacquiao defeated cotto with KO. The dominance of Pacquiao in every fight is emphatic compare to mayweather.

 

PACQUIAO still the number 1 P4P!!!.   

boxingsvoice
boxingsvoice

@WilbertVilla Pacquiao has made very great business decisions in his career. That's why he is TopDog but don't confuse the issue, he's not a legit prize fighter a.k.a true Champion. He only fights boxers who drain themselves & when he fight boxers in they're both respected weight classes he gets schooled. For example the way he got tooken to the university of true champions boxing by Marquez!

tstarks
tstarks moderator

 @WilbertVilla The champion should not get the benefit of scoring. Anyway, he just had some stupid WBO belt. He wasn't the actual champion.

 

I still think Pacquiao won the fight easily. And yes, the Cotto fight was close in my books, too. But P4P is about a lot of things. Based on recent form, I think Mayweather far looks the better fighter, and his resume of wins is better over the last couple years. (P.S. Mayweather dominated Marquez far more easily than did Pacquiao.)

myklds
myklds

 @tstarks Should Pacquiao whoops Marquez ass on their 4th meeting, would you rank him above Mayweather? Or, you'll find another reasons to make him stay as the second best next to the ex-convict.

DanielTay1
DanielTay1

Pacman will be only back to number one if he can knock out his opponents again. That's the mentality of this writer..

asbacugan
asbacugan

Since you think Pacquiao lost, take him out of your P4P 20 boxers.  It is OVIOUS, this COLUMN hates FILIPINOS, TO ASHIK WAGLIANI - BE CAREFUL. you might lose your eyes for eating your words.

boxingsvoice
boxingsvoice

@asbacugan You are making this out to be more than what it is, its not that complex. Asain fighters are warriors, they have heart & very quick. Its just to bad that the majority of them are not recognized. The one who is highly recognized refuses to take a simple test. A true champion like Martinez, Mayweather, Marquez & many more have lead by example & tooken the test.

boxingsvoice
boxingsvoice

@asbacugan You are making this out to be more than what it is, its not that complex. Asain fighters are warriors, they have heart & very quick. Its just to bad that the majority of them are not recognized. The one who is highly recognized refuses to take a simple test. A true champion like Martinez, Mayweather, Marquez & many more have lead by example & tooken the test.

tstarks
tstarks moderator

 @asbacugan DUMB SHIT: I DIDN'T SAY I THOUGHT PACQUIAO LOST. I THINK HE WON.

 

You clearly lost your own eyes, because you didn't read this column.

AshikWagjiani
AshikWagjiani

onaire is garbage he doesnt deserve to be there so high let alone on the rankings.

wbox
wbox

Simply compare Floyd & Pacquiao fight vs. Marquez, DelaHoya, Hatton, Cotto & Mosley and you know who the rightful Asian P4P man is????

tstarks
tstarks moderator like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @wbox Certainly, Pacquiao is the Asian P4P king.

margaret14
margaret14

Great post. It was an informative post.. Many boxing analyst looking for this post.. Thanks for letting me stopped by..

Warf
Warf like.author.displayName 1 Like

Universal acclaim, usage, or belief trumps anything official. That is why we are human beings able to discern beyond what is forced upon us by a piece of paper. Anything otherwise is robotic and letter obsessed. Same reason I admired how Ring and Boxrec handled this situation by putting a question mark on Bradley's win and a clear comment on what actually transpired in that fight proclaiming their belief who actually won. You on the other hand are enslaved by the 3 blind mice's game. You can be better than that. Floyd in jail without doing  anything ups Pacquiao in the Pound for Pound rating. That is just laughable. Only in boxing. Waters are murkier because of writers like you.

boxingsvoice
boxingsvoice

@Warf You my friend are the blindest of all, You are the new Ray Charles! When Pacquiao got bombed on by Marquez you to bought the pitcher of fresh microbrewed Bullshit Lager & drank it all! You probably even shared as you drove off in the zombie bandwagon!

tstarks
tstarks moderator

Wow. I sure pissed you off. Let's see if we can talk this through, yeah?

 

--"Universal acclaim" or "universal belief" isn't how I think boxing rankings should be done, pound-for-pound or divisional. That makes boxing rankings nothing more than a popularity poll. Do you think Julio Cesar Chavez should be ranked ahead of Sergio Martinez? Mikkel Kessler ahead of Andre Ward?

 

--I don't know what "universal usage" is. Please explain.

 

--There's nothing robotic about saying the winner is the winner. Do you think that it's robotic for the NBA to acknowledge the Miami Heat as the winner of Game 2 of the NBA Finals? After all -- "The most controversial of the calls was forward Kevin Durant not drawing a foul on the Heat's LeBron James in the closing seconds. Durant missed a shot that would have tied the score. Replays appeared to show James making contact." Should the Heat be called by journalists the non-champions because of that?

 

--I just went to Ring's site and Boxrec and didn't see a question mark anywhere. Please show me what you're talking about.

 

--I'm enslaved by no one. I ranked Pacquiao ahead of Bradley, didn't I? I did it in P4P rankings, wouldn't do it in divisional rankings.

 

--What does a jail sentence have to do with a pound-for-pound ranking?

 

--"Only in boxing" is what you're saying, not what I'm saying. Only in boxing would anyone propose ranking an athlete/team ahead of another after that athlete/team suffered an official loss. If there's another sport where that mentality would be embraced, I don't kow what it is.

SantosonlyIf
SantosonlyIf

@tstarks Let's see, one play versus 100 plays, (punches landed variance)... Oh I see your point. #2. Even if you think that one play would have made the Thunder champions, the flow of the series proves otherwise. Heat simply outperformed theThunder. Like PAQ did Bradley.

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